Real Marriage by Mark & Grace Driscoll. In today's world, many lose focus on Mark and Grace Driscoll begin their book by telling their story. From their family. Most marriage books use "intimacy" as code for "sex." This is not one of those books. In Real Marriage, Pastor Mark Driscoll and his wife, Grace, share how they. Book Review: Mark and Grace Driscoll's Real Marriage. Let me tell you about my car. It's your typical sedan. It doesn't have many special features, but. I honestly.
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Editorial Reviews. About the Author. Pastor Mark Driscoll is the founding pastor of Mars Hill Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together - Kindle edition by Mark Driscoll, Grace Driscoll. Religion & Spirituality Kindle. Adapted from 'Real Marriage' by Mark and Grace Driscoll series and marriage books is that they focus solely on the marriage without considering the rest. Real Marriage: The Truth about Sex, Friendship, and Life Together. by Mark Driscoll You may be reeling from a devastating sin in your marriage. Or the two of.
I see Philippians 1 reference in light of the Driscolls often where Paul was grateful wherever the biblical gospel is preached. We should be. But when is it time to be like Paul in Acts There are a lot — A LOT — of men who are seriously giving themselves away missionally to transform a sexualized culture with a biblical gospel AND are pursuing and calling others by the grace of God, to a holy life.
Would to God young preachers would be like Christian going through Vanity Fair and would simply plug our ears and not listen or read such filthy nonsense — even if it has some good stuff mixed in. My heart breaks to think of marriage — such a beautiful and gracious picture of our union with the Beloved Jesus — being so marred.
May God keep us holy. I completely agree that all forms of sodomy are sinful…not to mention EVIL. My husband and I were both appalled and disgusted with his view on sodomy, role play, and sex toys. Not only is it unhealthy, but it is unnatural. Once again, sinful and unnatural. I had to pray for God to cleanse my mind from the junk that I saw on there.
Promoting a— sex, watching your husband mast——, and sex toys to married couples is bad news. I am more than perfectly happy making love with my husband in the way God created us to do so.
And I know my husband and I will never change our mind about that. I can only pray that God will convict these people of there wrongs. Our body is the temple of the Lord, and we should do all we can to glorify God in our marriage, not the world.
Does a stale sex-life glorify Him? Finally, they both made perfectly clear that it should be mutually acceptable, and they further explicitly instructed husbands and wives to not do something that their spouse was not comfortable with. Thanks for the review. Driscol is a bit warped, though his theology is also good.
He needs some purification in a particular area, as we all do, but he sure can say things that are ungodly, and not wholesome. May our Lord purify us all more and more, so that we become more and more holy in His name, and less sinful in our hearts. And may we desire more than anything to be humbly and set apart for Christ.
This review is gold on many levels. Thank you. Also, thank you for the graciousness with which you speak concerning Mark and Grace.
He is a fallible man just like the rest of us and, while many of his errors are great, his Savior is greater still. And you have done a remarkable job of doing just that. May God continue blessing you and your family in Nicely done, well balanced and informative. It is the standard all of us as pastors need in an age of new found freedoms in the church. By starting with the issue of exegesis, you anchor it in the word.
I know Piper has lovingly shepherded Driscoll in years past. Has he weighed in on this book? Can you provide the names of those other books that have the strengths of Real Marriage without all the weaknesses? How many people will read Driscol and violate an internal taboo because he and his wife said it was permissible? Too many, I fear. And no wonder it gets ignored as it has 10 symmetries in the relations between husband and wife and symmetries are naturally read as egal.
If you want to teach gender hierarchy, better to ignore symmetries and hope no one finds out. In Eph 5, comps get the mapping of marriage to Christ and the church backwards.
The mapping is a husband is to look at how Christ serves the church and practices sacrificial love and go and do likewise to his wife. There is no backwards mapping about how the husband represents Christ and a wife does not, no matter how much comps might prefer such a mapping. In any case, this is a 1st century application of the mutual submission principle, one can figure this out as it is a subordinate clause in the Greek to Eph 5: The reason 1st century believing husbands in Ephesus were told to serve and sacrificially love their wives is because they had the power in Roman law and culture, as Ephesus was under Roman law, even to the extent of choosing to discard children or not, like a mafia godfather in power.
They were to lay down this power to love and serve their wives, a very counter-cultural statement, then and now. In any case, we know that the sacrificial love agape that a husband is to practice is not about getting its own way, per 1 Cor As usual, the Christian left will continue to criticize Driscoll for all the wrong reasons.
To be honest, I am not sure what some of the sex terms Denny used in the review mean and not sure I want to know. He is a doctor and they are believers and discuss the subject thoroughly and Scripturally.
This says more about your biases than it does the importance of discussing gender roles in a manner that is Biblically faithful. The place of men and women in the context of marriage was a central theme in the book. We know the tragedy of having multiple partners; it can lead to dissatisfaction in any marriage.
People tend to compare the sex they had with a person s in the past with their current partner hopefully a spouse. When we expose our hearts and minds to books of this graphic nature, we are only doing our own marriages a disservice.
A partner we WISH we had. A partner WE fantasize over. A partner WE covet sexually. This is so dangerous! What I mean by this is that by reading this literature, we learn and hear of all kinds and types of sexual acts and fantasies that others may be doing and living out that are pleasurable, and if our partners are not willing to act out in similar fashion, many people then become dissatisfied with their spouses unwillingness to perform such acts, and we then long for a surrogate even in book form.
So dangerous! There is so much to be said for innocence.
God will bless it; have no fear! As in all things, do all to the glory of the Lord. Use your God given, good sense, as married adults to figure out what makes you and your spouse happy, and know for sure, as we live and breathe in this FALLEN world, happiness and self fulfillment have a way of eluding all of us.
Also, on a side note, we all know that false teachers can and do attain a high degree of understanding of the deeper things of God. They even can teach the true gospel message with great zeal, but this is no sign they are born again, even the devils can appear to be an angel of light. As in everything, you shall know them by their fruits. Your third paragraph sounds exactly like it was written by Mark and Grace Driscoll. And I completely agree!
Your last paragraph seems to be implying that Pastor Driscoll is a false teacher. That seems a bit disingenuous. Though they have obvious differences in opinion, I seriously doubt Dr. Burk would suggest Pastor Driscoll as a false teacher. Thankyou Casey. So much criticism is based on a false caricature of Mark Dricoll and his book rather than actual fact. In my estimation this is adultery of the first order.
Like comparing one lover to another lover. I hope I made this clear? As I said before, if we honor God with our virginity and innocence, we have a greater chance of receiving blessings. Obedience seems to work that way, often times.
This is not true in other areas of our lives. We live in a fallen world. People ask these questions. They really ask them. I recently just finished the audiobook of this and I share the same appreciations and concerns that you have shared here.
Bad enough, this article brought disturbing images now a book that endorses them is too much. I wonder if Homosexuals and bisexuals are going to grab the book and make a case for sexuality being a matter of personal choice. I really doubt any member of the LGBTQ community will turn to someone as homophobic as Mark Driscoll to make a case for the subjectivity of sexuality.
Denny thank you so much for writing such a thoughtful review — acknowledging both the beneficial and not beneficial elements. You review is such a powerful demonstration about what godly men should be doing with all books — evaluating them against the standard of Scripture.
Whew You just saved me the head ache of wondering why a pastor is performing the role of a sex therapist. Great review! Are you suggesting that we send folks in our local churches who need counsel in regards to sexual issues to a sex therapist and not their pastor? Please correct my misunderstanding if I am off base. This is a balanced response, respectfully done and highly readable!
And this post did the former! I personally an concerned with the vitriol spewed out from within the body of Christ, towards this one or that one at the drop of a hat for what the other would find egregious, salacious or malicious. I find that I have most often erred in the very fact that I have spoken or written when what was most needed is that I kept quiet and instead of protestation, should have employed prostration before God. My failures in following are many. Most offense that we confront or correction that we give is often based more upon affront towards our preference rather than a broken heart over the Glory of God being sullied by abhorrent taxonomy or theology.
While I am sure the heart of God is grieved by the manipulators of scripture, I am also sure that he is equally angry with those who would abuse His bride. I unequivocally agree with your assessment and find grace in the text and between the lines.
A writer with his readers is often able to bully and get by with loud amens, provided his advice caters to his audience and their preference. I do not see you employing any of those methods and for that I am grateful.
I understood the spirit behind his injunction. In retrospect and with a view towards the history of the church, I can only say that I thank God that in His preeminent plan of unfolding and unveiling Christ, both by incarnation and by His inherent and infallible WORD that He did so in a time without twitter, facebook, nor blog.
I value more and more that as the early church fathers began to articulate and aggregate the Apostolic teachings that they did so, being separated by geography and instant messaging. These men poured over the Word of God with great care and with quill and papyrus reasoned and prayed and expounded.
Then with scrolls tucked under camel saddles, their work was submitted to others and so on and so forth. The point is, the process was slow, but forced much contemplation as well as reasoned searching of scripture.
I like the approach that is found in D. The former being divine and the latter being from hell itself. With most of our modern era seeing division in the church based upon arrangement, decor, use or lack there of of instruments and what tune they should strum. I think that J. Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,— Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown, Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
To pontificate in the public forum, while seeking to glorify God is a Holy yet most arduous task and in so doing we must of need open ourselves up to the most carnivorous and cordial among us. In my mind and heart, as I meditate upon Christ my King and see His precious brow bloodied and covered with the spit of men- while naked and exposed and heading to a place called Calvary, I cannot help but be overcome by such redemption.
Please forgive my lack of brevity, but a broken heart sometimes releases more than tears. I find it a bit refreshing that there are solid Christian folks finally engaging questions that the vast majority of people in our cities, schools, seminaries, churches, and families are asking. I would much rather have someone address these issues as the Driscolls have done, than continue to do nothing at all.
Are there critical reviews of this book coming out of the urban Northwest or Northeast? Also, at what point are those who are so eager to critique the Driscolls also willing and eager to offer concrete counsel on such obviously pressing questions?
It is perfectly okay to differ on the specifics, but what are the specifics? What are the differences? I give props to the Driscolls for even caring to name some of them. Regardless of whether or not you think sex toys are good or bad, we should all hope that God will use this book in a mighty way, as he has much of what the Driscolls have done in the past. Full disclosure: I find this to be a generally helpful review but have some questions about some of the argumentation.
I also have no interest in commending or condemning any particular sex act, but am worried that some arguments here could be carried further than intended. When you use the term Sodomy, one has to assume that you believe this act is sinful. It suggests that the act between a faithful committed loving husband and wife are committing the same sin as the rapists at sodom, or at the very least are engaging in a obviously homosexual and thus sinful act.
You may believe this, but if so it need to be demonstrated not lead with. Suggesting on some level an ignorance I would guess of both homosexual and heterosexual sexuality…and perhaps suggesting that homosexuality is primarily a issue of an icky way of doing sex and not an issue of broken identity, sexuality and spirituality.
Beyond that I am not sure that the argument can be sustained. It seems to go like this: Gays have in a— intercourse, Being Gay is wrong therefore to have a— intercourse is wrong. The problem with this is that it can also be stated that: Gays kiss, to be gay is wrong therefore to kiss is wrong. I am not sure that this argument can be carried out without eventually leading to a prohibition of all sex acts besides simple intercourse.
Further the focus on the homosexual nature seems to be sketchy in general. What if we applied it like this. Bob had a sexual affair, that sexual affair was wrong, therefore even though Bob and his wife are reconciled intercourse might remind Bob of the sinful partner therefore intercourse is wrong.
I do agree with what you have said about explicit detail. I think God gives us much freedom sexually. I think that the freedom should be protected, but not just by what we do in the bed but also how we talk about it outside the bed. This I think cuts both ways. I think that to declare any act sinful that is not clearly condemned is overstepping pastoral bounds. However I think to describe acts to graphically also oversteps pastoral bounds.
Men and women are wonderful creatures and if they are given a Gospel based, grace filled, giving context for their marriage then a emotionally healthy couple should be able to experiment and discover new joys all the days of their marriage… And should not need charts from a pastor to do it.
I am using the term in its modern sense, not as a designation of the sin of Sodom. The Driscolls bring up the possibility of sodomy causing temptation to homosexuality p. I was trying to raise the possibility that it might also arouse unbiblical passions in men who have no past background.
I am not saying that this kind of activity is what causes all cases of homosexual attraction. But it is a possibility. There are some things that might be discussed in a one-on-one counseling session that one might not want to say in a book for general readers. It takes wisdom to know which is appropriate for which occasion. Denny, thanks for your thorough review. Your scholarship and thoroughness of research definitely shows.
I do desire that Mark Driscoll would see the importance of thorough research, reviewing relevant literature, informing his readers of the findings, why his view is correct, and appealing to authority outside of himself. The influence he has over people provide a mandate for such. John Piper, This Momentary Marriage. Timothy Keller, The Meaning of Marriage. It is bad logic, history, and theology to argue that culture has so changed that we need to wake up and pull up our skirts a little and talk about things because these are the questions being asked.
The believers of the NT era lived in a sex-crazed culture — with fornication, adultery, sodomy, temple prostitution, abortion, exposure, etc. When the apostle Paul, for instance, discussed these things, he hit them head-on, yet with a wholesome reserve. I have worked in health care for more than 30 years.
We were required to wear gloves at all times, were much more careful about handling blood samples and needles, and more. I did quite a bit of reading about the sexual activities sodomy, and more that facilitated the spread of HIV, and while HIV and AIDS were the main topic of most of what I read, there were other diseases and conditions that were heretofore unknown and which doctors were starting to see in large numbers in male homosexuals.
E coli in the throat. An example is Hepatitis B. This type of hepatitis had been known about for some time, but suddenly it was rampant among homosexual males, and it soon became another addition to the growing list of sexually transmitted diseases —- where it remains today.
A fulfillment, I believe, of Proverbs 7: All that to say this: When God decreed in Deut. This command is the foundation for modern sanitation practices, indoor plumbing, waste treatment plants, etc. His design was for that sphincter to be opened by the internal force of egestion, for very brief periods of time. Repeated penetration from the outside will weaken the sphincter, even to the point of incontinence. No one wants that. Please note, though: I am not saying here that every miscarriage is automatically the result of a previous abortion.
There are other causes for miscarriages. The wall of the rectum is thin — much thinner than the wall of the vagina. The practice of sodomy puts unnatural pressure on the wall of the rectum, causing tears in the tissue, and allowing bacteria and viruses to escape into the bloodstream. But the tearing of the rectal wall has another serious consequence: I see a lot of people saying that kind of thing about our culture our increasingly corrupt culture, or even the Driscolls saying that we are more sexual than other times , and I think it bears pointing out, that our culture is not more evil than other cultures.
As early as Genesis 6: Thanks for your article. I wonder if Mark Driscoll knew the health implications of these practices sodomy, for instance before writing the book? Like you, I worked in hospitals and clinics for many years before my retirement and I am so concerned for our young, and old too, people. We sure live in a world that has lost its way and the devil is an expert in mixing some truth with error to bring about more moral decay.
So it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. Denny Burk gave a solid review of the book and I appreciate it. I do not recommend this book to anyone since there is so much more harm than good in it.
Denny you did a awesome job dealing with the controversies surrounding this book with both clarity and charity. Excellent review and if people wish to purchase this book , they will have a discerning eye. Excellent job. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous that is, an idolater , has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.
Walk as children of light for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true , and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. We really need to be careful when we talk about having sex, and teaching others how to do it.
God truly needs to be listened to, and we better have the right amount of fear mixed with love when we study the holy Word, and share it. However, we can both agree that Denny has put together a fine review that should be read and thoughtfully considered.
In one, he is told to marry Grace, preach the Bible, etc. Good point, and my question is what purpose could God have in showing Mark the second vision? Assuming Mark is telling the truth, has he considered that it may not have been of God? I think Mark thinks much too highly of himself to believe they may not have been from God as that type of mysticism has been an important part of his ministry. I mean seriously, come on. Has culture so influenced our thinking that we just go with the flow now or what?
You can go with the argument that if a husband and a wife want to lovingly do this act but at the end of the day you will find no one who has lovingly done so.
Please, if you respond with an argument please use constructive criticism. I have never heard of an animal that commits sodomy…. But it seems to me that a book specifically dealing with sex is the perfect place to go into explicit detail about sex acts. This is not a healthy model for a community.
And I say this from experience as the son of a Pastor. If a Christian couple can enjoy sex in a multitude of ways that is respectful to each other, then that should be their decision. There is a lock and a key, and any other use of the key is wrong.
I think the bigger concern should should be directed in how a community treats others non-spouse. Have you read Genesis?
You can say that some of these were not healthy sexual expressions, and I would agree. But the author of Genesis was quite explicit. The Bible does not have a single voice on sex and marriage. It is a multitude of voices written from various times and cultures. To try to form these voices into a single normative directive for sex and marriage would not be a healthy approach to the text, in my opinion.
That seems to be begging the question. Yes, the Bible mentions sexual sins in fairly dry terms. It is NOT detailed and graphic in the same way the Driscolls are. I can think of no better place for sex information to be written than in a book on marriage. Do I think that Driscoll has done a good job in explaining the dangers of some sex acts?
However, as Evangelicals we have either run from the physical aspects of sex or given out physiologically inaccurate information based on old wives tales.
Instead of running from the issue, I think that we should be confronting it head on. I just finished reading an article from Mark Driscol about this question exactly.
People might not like it. The only advice given in churches is almost entirely subjective and ambiguous. For me, the Driscolls have now been forever linked to these indelicate ways and unhygenic positions, and I wish more than anything they would have thought of the undignified place this messy chapter 10 puts poor Grace especially into. It really is a case of Too Much Information. I think Driscoll has maybe in his way tried to help married people, but his personal disclosures are not in keeping with maintaining the boundaries demanded by the privacy of the marital union.
Christiane and Karen, I share your sentiments. Her dignity has been compromised. What is the world coming to? Maybe Driscoll should look at 1 Cor. Unfortunately, the ESV used a dynamic equivalency translation here. Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Scripture is not unclear on these questions.
All forms of sodomity are sinful. So your criticism is misplaced. There is no condemnation of heterosexual anal sex. We might find the topic disgusting; we might wish there were such a condemnation.
What we need, then are Biblically rooted principles. It is quite clear from Romans 3. How can one glorify God committing such an act if God deems that very act to be unnatural and contrary to His design? I think this is a much needed caution for young and old couples, and even those considering marriage, in a world gone wrong.
I also believe it is about married monogamous romance and love within marriage, and also applies in a way to Christ and the church secondarily.
Abishag may be — the argument that Shulamite and Shunamite are the same person. Driscoll actually helped me on that point, I had never heard that or read that before as I did listen to one or two of his Song of Solomon audio messages a long time ago.
I never got back to them ran out of time and they went out of sight out of mind; then later others started critiquing him for his bad language and explicit visions, so I decided not to back to his messages. People distort this gift and tend to see sex as either god or gross. However, the Bible gives six ways in which sex is Sexual assault is an epidemic: Sin would leave us as shamed, defiled victims, but in Jesus, we are cleansed from all unrighteousness if today Porn hurts God.
Porn hurts men, women, and children. Porn hurts marriages.
There is no such thing as free porn. Crissy iamatreasure. Jesus is the unselfish servant, but we are all selfish. When the Corinthians asked the Apostle Paul a list of questions about sex, he directed them to consider three categories: Pastor Mark encourages married couples to do How can we pick a good friend? How can we be a good friend? In our culture today, there are three marriage killers: In this sermon, those errors are corrected with the biblical concept of covenant.
What does it mean to have a covenant relationship with God? First Name. Daily Devotions from Pastor Mark. Monthly Leader Equipping Materials. Key 1 Becoming Relationally Healthy.